Why no protection signet? - Guild Wars Forums

Strife17 · Oct 11, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I like playing as a monk in pvp

I intend to use signet of rejuv as energy managment. but Woh monk gets so boring... same build over and over again.

So I wanted to monk as ZB (because i was tired as woh). so decided to test run it a bit in AB.

And i was wondering, why is there no protection signet? i have alot more energy problems as a prot monk than a woh monk with signet of rejuv.

Divine favor has signet of devotion. smiting has its signets. but why no prot signet?

I could use signet of devotion i guess, but not really fan of that signet..

just a silly question lol

snaek · Oct 11, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

prolly cuz gw's skills weren't thought out very well
and so u get random inconsistencies like that

then again...adding a prot signet would prolly be even more random than not havin one in teh first place 0__o

Konig Des Todes · Oct 11, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

signets are one-time effect skills that don't use energy.

A "protection signet" would mean a signet with a duration, therefore would go against the idea of a signet.

A better question is "why do monks have poor energy management?"

Age · Oct 11, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

You don't need one that is why and when using ZB using it sparingly mostly on youself and you get 7e back in return.Weapon swapping helps as well.You will mostly use reversal of fortune,guardian,protective spirit,dismiss condition and holy veil.

snaek · Oct 11, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

signets are one-time effect skills that don't use energy.

A "protection signet" would mean a signet with a duration, therefore would go against the idea of a signet.

A better question is "why do monks have poor energy management?"

signets can have durations, see:
signet of recall
signet of stamina
signet of strength
archer's signet
poison tip signet
etc

prot spells dun have to be bout duration, see:
all condition removal skills (too lazy to type em all out)

wind fire and ice · Oct 11, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Really prot is balanced as it is,if you have energy management problems use Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Monking is all about knowing when and where to use skills,if you know what your doing you can usually run with no Emanage on most bars..if you have more then 1 10E skill just use GoLe and your set.

Chthon · Oct 11, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel

A better question is "why do monks have poor energy management?"

Because PvP balance requires that monks run out of energy sooner or later. Otherwise PvP devolves (even further) into a one-dimensional spiking competition.

An even better questions is "why, since PvE doesn't share that need, isn't there a PvE-only skill to shore up that gap?"

Konig Des Todes · Oct 11, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

signets can have durations, see:
signet of recall
signet of stamina
signet of strength
archer's signet
poison tip signet
etc

prot spells dun have to be bout duration, see:
all condition removal skills (too lazy to type em all out)

First, when I read "Protection signet" what registered in my head was a signet that acts like Shield of Absorption, or Protective Spirit, ya know, reducing damage taken over an amount of time, not condition removal (as signets like that exist).

As for your list, signets cannot "last forever," so to speak, so in order to prevent easier maintaining, they are given a duration.

Also, for reference sake:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

sig??net /ˈsɪgnɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sig-nit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
???noun
1. a small seal, as on a finger ring.
2. a small official seal for legal documents, contracts, etc.
3. an impression made by or as if by a signet.
???verb (used with object)
4. to stamp or mark with a signet.

Signets are small rings/seals used, in GW's case, to improve one's fighting ability (or help heal), kind of like a small magical item. These items, in common fantasy lore, cannot last indefinantly. In looking at a lore standard (or a different type of game's mechanic), the signets would basically be used up and worthless after a while, the durations would be the "after a while" and would therefore become useless (needing another one).

In GW, you basically have an unlimited amount of signets, but some, such as Resurrection Signets, cannot be used one right after the other (hence the recharge times), those with durations are just "stronger" signets.

For instance, the Signet of Stamina, you use it, and "hold" it until you have to attack, once you attack, you have to "stop holding" it. Those with durations you just "hold" to keep their affect going. However, is not the case for all of them, such as Poison Tip Signet, which would basically be like APply Poison (however, using a signet to apply the poison, instead of a bag or whatever - from a lore perspective).

There are Protection Signets, in terms of removing conditions and hexes, but they are not in the Protections attributes (they are in no-attribute, or in Divine Favor). There cannot be a signet to affect others (other then a simple one-time use, and one time uses would be either resurrecting, healing, or removing conditions/hexes).

Also, as I said briefly in the paragraph above, signets cannot have a duration on others (which is what I meant in my previous post, that is, an enchantment-like affect on others). Signets only affect the user/wielder or give a one-time affect on others.

The best that can happen for a "Protection Signet" would be to move something like Purge Signet to the Protection line, or make a monk version of Signet of Stamina (or a signet version of an auto-self-targeting Shielding Hands).

joshuarodger · Oct 11, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Because PvP balance requires that monks run out of energy sooner or later. Otherwise PvP devolves (even further) into a one-dimensional spiking competition.

An even better questions is "why, since PvE doesn't share that need, isn't there a PvE-only skill to shore up that gap?"

i think that's what selfless spirit was supposed to be.

oeg82000 · Oct 11, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Some mesmer hexes(maybe necro got something,not sure) wont let you use signens,and if it is protection,u would be stuck with it
.....you may say:hex removal(bla,bla,bla);u know how ez to be overhexed there...

snaek · Oct 12, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

@azazel
lol...do not confuse lore wit gw game mechanics

there r many options for a prot signet

Konig Des Todes · Oct 12, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39

I'm not confusing the two, however, the background of skills, currently, stick with the lore ideology of the skill types.

My point is what I bolded before:
Signets only affect the user/wielder or give a one-time affect on others.

You can put signets into Protection Prayers, but they would have to be self-targeting or just simple heals or condition/hex removals. And healing signets exist in the Divine and Healing lines, and condition/hex removal exist in Divine and no attribute lines.

smilingscar · Oct 12, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Signets only affect the user/wielder or give a one-time affect on others.

Not to nitpick but...

Signet of Binding
Signet of Ghostly Might

They may only affect summoned creatures, but they're still signets with lasting durations on an ally.

Also, couldn't you just have a self targeted signet for protection prayers anyway? Monks get beat on enough, I'm sure it would be of some use...

snaek · Oct 12, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by azazel

A "protection signet" would mean a signet with a duration, therefore would go against the idea of a signet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

You can put signets into Protection Prayers, but they would have to be self-targeting or just simple heals or condition/hex removals. And healing signets exist in the Divine and Healing lines, and condition/hex removal exist in Divine and no attribute lines.

see...
now ur jus changing ur argument
to simply restate a similar thing i was saying

i never said u had to break the rules of a "signet" to have one in the protection line
but there -are- options
as u stated urself in ur *new* argument

and theres nuthing wrong wit it being simple or redundancy among energy-costing skills
as having it cost no energy is unique nuff in itself

take a look at the healing prayers line
and tell me how many skills dun include "player is healed for xx" (or similar wording)

Konig Des Todes · Oct 12, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

@smilingscar: A spirit is different then a person. Personally, I think those two skills go against the idea of a signet. But, none-the-less, on a spirit (in some cases for ritualists, can be viewed more as an extension of one's self then another being, but that's opinion based currently), a signet would have different affects then on a mortal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

1) see...
now ur jus changing ur argument
to simply restate a similar thing i was saying

2) i never said u had to break the rules of a "signet" to have one in the protection line
but there -are- options
as u stated urself in ur *new* argument

3) and theres nuthing wrong wit it being simple or redundancy among energy-costing skills
as having it cost no energy is unique nuff in itself

4) take a look at the healing prayers line
and tell me how many skills dun include "player is healed for xx" (or similar wording)

I numberd your paragraphs to make my response easier to follow:

1. Not changing arguments, just being more specific.

2. You didn't say that, but what I was saying is that other then healing (which would belong in healing/divine) and/or condition/hex removal (which already exists, in divine and no attribute). What doesn't break the ideology of a signet are in other lines which can be used by a full protection monk (by going into divine or into no attribute).

Also, there are options, however, what I said still stands.

3. There is nothing wrong with it being a copy of energy-costing spells (but isn't that what the current signets for monks are???)

4. But, healing for xx, being instanced, is not what I am arguing.

I am arguing against a signet version of a skill like Protective Spirit. There are signet versions of healing others (Signet of Devotion) or removing conditions/hex (Purge Signet). There is nothing wrong with them being in the Protection Prayers line, but what can go as a signet in terms of use are in Divine or No Attribute lines already and therefore would not be needed to go into Protective Prayers.

Also, if you decide to bring up the argument changing again...

Quote:

Originally Posted by myself

First, when I read "Protection signet" what registered in my head was a signet that acts like Shield of Absorption, or Protective Spirit, ya know, reducing damage taken over an amount of time, not condition removal (as signets like that exist).

My "first argument" was primarily on a signet version of Protective Spirit/Shield of Absorption/etc. My "new argument," as you put it, is on Signet uses in general, being more specific in how a signet would be used, instead of saying it can't be a duration (while not specifying that I meant cannot be a duration on others *and, again, spirits are special cases*).

snaek · Oct 12, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

well then there r different interpretations of "protection signet"

it can be:
#1) a signet that has a protection-like quality similar to an enchantment
#2) a signet of any quality under the protection prayers skill line

i interpretted it as option #2

u were using it as #1
which i would agree wit

giving a monk an unremovable prot (like rit weapon spells & paragon shouts/chants/echos) would prolly be imba
especially if it was a free-cast signet

but then again
gw is an ever-changing and evolving game

the devs always feel teh need to randomly change mechanics and game elements
(see: introduction of sin/rit/para/derv)

so even then...
u cant really judge wut should or shouldnt be technically allowed in the game
by wut is in teh game rite now
(whether thats a good thing or bad thing)

_Nihilist_ · Oct 12, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Arguing this is like arguing why a Warrior who has Signets in Strength and Tactics, as well as a non-attribute attack that is fueled by Signets [Symbolic Strike] does or doesn't have Signets in the Weapon Attributes.

snaek has a good grip on this, and I do agree with some of your points on GW mechanics vs. typical fantasy lore Azazel, but honestly, I think the question has been answered quite well with the following quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

giving a monk an unremovable prot (like rit weapon spells & paragon shouts/chants/echos) would prolly be imba
especially if it was a free-cast signet

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind fire and ice

Monking is all about knowing when and where to use skills,if you know what your doing you can usually run with no Emanage on most bars..

Even if you use Signet of Devotion on a Dedicated Prot bar, you are going to have some points in Divine Favor. This would help your Healer catch a breather (and some energy regen). Instead of questioning why there isn't one, why not use the time to better effect by working with what exists, or dropping this thread into the Sardelac Forum (Game Suggestions) with a few examples? Sometimes it helps others to see exactly what you mean when you give one.

Owik Gall · Oct 12, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

If there's a sig in protection that WILL help with the energy management for prot healers, than they might as well let everyone know they have a force field. I imagine that if there is a sig for prot they can spam their prot skills more often then ever. That will be too annoying to everyone and quite infuriating. Not sure it will make prot monks overpowered, but let's say it will make them hated so much that not even their team mates will like them. Just a guess, though.

_Nihilist_ · Oct 12, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

I imagine that if there is a sig for prot they can spam their prot skills more often then ever.

Check for E/Mo ER Prot Spammer here or on PvX. They are already here, looking like Elementalists.

illidan009 · Oct 12, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

You wouldn't need sigs in the first place with GoLE.

Oct 11, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57	#10
oeg82000 Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Aug 2008 Profession: Mo/	Some mesmer hexes(maybe necro got something,not sure) wont let you use signens,and if it is protection,u would be stuck with it .....you may say:hex removal(bla,bla,bla);u know how ez to be overhexed there... Last edited by oeg82000; Oct 12, 2008 at 12:16 AM // 00:16..

Oct 12, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05	#16
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	well then there r different interpretations of "protection signet" it can be: #1) a signet that has a protection-like quality similar to an enchantment #2) a signet of any quality under the protection prayers skill line i interpretted it as option #2 u were using it as #1 which i would agree wit giving a monk an unremovable prot (like rit weapon spells & paragon shouts/chants/echos) would prolly be imba especially if it was a free-cast signet but then again gw is an ever-changing and evolving game the devs always feel teh need to randomly change mechanics and game elements (see: introduction of sin/rit/para/derv) so even then... u cant really judge wut should or shouldnt be technically allowed in the game by wut is in teh game rite now (whether thats a good thing or bad thing) Last edited by snaek; Oct 12, 2008 at 02:09 AM // 02:09..

Oct 11, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55	#1
Strife17 Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jul 2008 Profession: Mo/	Why no protection signet? I like playing as a monk in pvp I intend to use signet of rejuv as energy managment. but Woh monk gets so boring... same build over and over again. So I wanted to monk as ZB (because i was tired as woh). so decided to test run it a bit in AB. And i was wondering, why is there no protection signet? i have alot more energy problems as a prot monk than a woh monk with signet of rejuv. Divine favor has signet of devotion. smiting has its signets. but why no prot signet? I could use signet of devotion i guess, but not really fan of that signet.. just a silly question lol

Oct 11, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01	#2
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	prolly cuz gw's skills weren't thought out very well and so u get random inconsistencies like that then again...adding a prot signet would prolly be even more random than not havin one in teh first place 0__o

Oct 11, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29	#3
Konig Des Todes Ooo, pretty flower Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Citadel of the Decayed Guild: The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore] Profession: N/	signets are one-time effect skills that don't use energy. A "protection signet" would mean a signet with a duration, therefore would go against the idea of a signet. A better question is "why do monks have poor energy management?"

Oct 11, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29	#4
Age Hall Hero Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: California Canada/BC Guild: STG Administrator Profession: Mo/	You don't need one that is why and when using ZB using it sparingly mostly on youself and you get 7e back in return.Weapon swapping helps as well.You will mostly use reversal of fortune,guardian,protective spirit,dismiss condition and holy veil.

Oct 11, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45	#6
wind fire and ice Jungle Guide Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: There Guild: [ToA]	Really prot is balanced as it is,if you have energy management problems use Glyph of Lesser Energy. Monking is all about knowing when and where to use skills,if you know what your doing you can usually run with no Emanage on most bars..if you have more then 1 10E skill just use GoLe and your set.

Oct 12, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34	#11
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	@azazel lol...do not confuse lore wit gw game mechanics there r many options for a prot signet

Oct 12, 2008, 12:39 AM // 00:39	#12
Konig Des Todes Ooo, pretty flower Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Citadel of the Decayed Guild: The Archivists' Sanctum [Lore] Profession: N/	I'm not confusing the two, however, the background of skills, currently, stick with the lore ideology of the skill types. My point is what I bolded before: Signets only affect the user/wielder or give a one-time affect on others. You can put signets into Protection Prayers, but they would have to be self-targeting or just simple heals or condition/hex removals. And healing signets exist in the Divine and Healing lines, and condition/hex removal exist in Divine and no attribute lines.

Oct 12, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49	#18
Owik Gall Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jan 2007 Guild: Guardians of the Light Profession: W/Mo	If there's a sig in protection that WILL help with the energy management for prot healers, than they might as well let everyone know they have a force field. I imagine that if there is a sig for prot they can spam their prot skills more often then ever. That will be too annoying to everyone and quite infuriating. Not sure it will make prot monks overpowered, but let's say it will make them hated so much that not even their team mates will like them. Just a guess, though.

Oct 12, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50	#20
illidan009 Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: May 2008 Location: Volterra, Italy Profession: A/	You wouldn't need sigs in the first place with GoLE.